-- Intro --
Chris Moriarty
Hello and welcome to Workplace Geeks, the podcast that tracks down, pinpoints and scrutinizes the very best workplace research from around the globe and talks to the teams behind that research. I’m Chris Moriarty and I'm joined as ever by Ian Ellison.
Ian Ellison
Hello.
Chris Moriarty
Now, having said all that today's episode has a slightly different flavour to it. But we'll talk more about that in a moment. First, it's worth reflecting on our last episode with Susan Halford, which broke incidentally, our seven day download score. The feedbacks been great, and particularly on that kicker at the end when she spoke about her neutral lab, and there's been some lovely feedback from that, and our chat with Harriet Shortt the episode before that. So in you've got some nuggets of feedback you want to share with the listeners.
Ian Ellison
Okay, so first Harriet's episode couple of lovely snippets from LinkedIn. Fantastic, interesting discussion, and surprisingly insightful, fascinating and pioneering in your approaches. So brilliant. Great to see that that one's rolling on and turning to Susan's episode. Now, a particular one from Dale Jefferson, actually, so he says, as in any good show, they've left the best to last, and then a bit more. And then if you're really interested in the future of work, and how social and digital are interwoven, then check out the work being done at Bristol University and the neutral lab that Chris mentioned, it's truly fascinating and one to follow.
Chris Moriarty
So there you go. So remember, you can join the conversation by finding us on LinkedIn looking for Workplace Geeks, and using #workplacegeeks or by emailing Ian and I directly at hello@workplacegeeks.org.
Now right, on to today's episode. So, I mentioned before, that this has a slightly different feel to it. And that's because it was our first live recording. We were invited down to the inaugural Workplace Event, an exhibition that has evolved from the Facilities Event and now speaks to a broader audience of professionals involved in supporting work in organisations. And that was at the Birmingham's NEC. And we were invited down for a session on day two where in front of a live audience we interviewed Mr. Dan Pilling of the TSK Group. Now Ian, do you want to do us a little bit about Dan, TSK, and why we wanted to speak to him.
Ian Ellison
Okay, so if you go back to our workplace as a polyseme idea from episode one, and if that's new to what I've just said, then it really is worth dodging back to Episode One, have a quick listen to that bit, and then come back straight back here. That's fine. So where TSK, and Dan are very much stirred in the workspace part of workplace if you like so very much about the physical work environment for organisations, but most definitely with this stretching awareness of workplace more broadly and beyond. So TSK, organisation based up in Salford in the UK, they describe themselves as workplace design and build specialists comprising workplace strategists, designers, and construction professionals that bring passion, experience and expertise to every project.
Now, personally, I've known TSK, since around about 2009, I think and we worked on this project together when I was at Sheffield Business School. And what we were doing was we sort of collaboratively took the leadership team of the business school at the time on this journey to move into a really, really forward-thinking Activity Based Business Engagement space for the academics at that time. And it was it was kind of groundbreaking kind of exciting. Way back in 2009. Now, Chris, since then, both you and I have contributed to many of TSK's Knowledge Exchange events back in the world before COVID. Correct?
Chris Moriarty
Indeed.
Ian Ellison
And I guess in short, we've got a huge amount of time for TSK really, and their time served workspace expertise. So moving on to Dan. Dan's been with tsk for a while. But way back, I actually met Dan, through the workplace special interest group IWFM, before IWFM decided having workplace in their name was kind of important. And we've stayed very much in touch as he's moved through the range of different roles he talks about at the start of our discussion.
So, Dan is sharp is not shy of opinion. And more than anything, he's actually really pragmatic about making workplaces work for the businesses he works with, which I guess Chris brings us to the theme of today, which is making workplace research practically relevant. And Dan sort of challenged us, all of this academic stuff is good, and well, hypothetically speaking, but what happens when you've got to make stuff happen for real clients at speed, and on budget? And to be fair, there are loads of workplace specialists, studios, consultancies, who do just that real world project based research, arguably, DEGW that we keep mentioning on this podcast with the OG’s of all of this. So we said to Dan, howay then let's have a chat about how you do what you do past, present and future. And this discussion is the outcome.
Chris Moriarty
Lovely stuff, so look A few things to bear in mind before you listen to the interview, the audio quality is great considering we were recording in a big metal shed. And that's a massive thank you to Louie who came for the AV team on the day and was helping us do the recording. But there is some background murmuring going on. So bear that in mind, but it's nothing too distracting. So the focus was certainly on Dan and his insights. You'll also get listeners a flavor for how often in interrupts me, this is something we normally edit out of our episodes, because we can but this environment, his interrupting habit was on full show for everybody to see. So you'll finally get to see what I put up with. But other than that, enjoy the chat with Dan. And we'll be back afterwards to reflect on the discussion.
-- Interview –
Chris Moriarty
Dan, tell us a little bit about yourself, your background that has brought you up to this moment here and tell us a little bit about the work you do.
Dan Pilling
No problems at all, I feel like I should say my name is Dan, and I'm a Workplace Geek,
I've come on a bit of a strange winding path, which started really from a design and architecture perspective. So I've spent about 15 years in design and architecture, creating buildings, designing buildings, and I came to realisation that actually, it was often a process that was being done to people around about the same time as encountered yourselves as part of what was BIFM became IWFM, I really was started to think differently about how to engage the people who use the space rather than the people who are commissioning the space.
And I then transition towards workplace specific organisations. And that involved a spell client side with Rolls Royce Aerospace up in Derby, which was a fascinating eye opener towards, you know, what, what makes it tick from the inside out what the decision making processes look like. And then my current career iteration is a company called TSK, who build workplaces. I support that sort of initial sort of interpretation phase between an organisation designing what it is they want, and then designing and building. So that's a kind of whistlestop tour of how I've got to this point.
Chris Moriarty
So, you talked about the organisations you took that you're talking to you now and the role you play when you go into them, just tell us a little bit about those organisations, and perhaps use the kind of idea of extremities, you know, what, what extremes do you experience when you because every organisation will be different, right? But what's the sort of the best case in the worst case that you see in terms of their kind of, you know, whether it's mindset, whether it's approach, where it's readiness, wherever you want to define it as.
Dan Pilling
yeah, and it's, you know, without going into the piece about scale, and budgets and typology of business, I think there's, there's loosely kind of two categories. And I think that you could drop those into, you know, a description of an informed client, and then an a less informed client. And I think there's, in the sector that we work in, the less informed clients see the workplaces as an operational cost. And I think when you treat something as an operational cost, bids can be shaved off it, you can value engineer, a horrible term, a value engineer that, and actually, when the costs for that then get reported up to board level, it simplifies that conversation to be just about the numbers about, you know, return on investment is the phraseology. And actually, you know, it treats it like a commodity. And it also in sort of takes it away from being a place for people. Who's making that decision on what are the factors they're making that decision on? And if it's about money, you're gonna get a certain outcome?
Ian Ellison
I think so can I just interrupt that? Does that mean that they're coming to a they're coming to your organisation, they're coming to you with also with a formed conclusion about sort of, they've almost decided what they want, and money is square and center. And you have to then sort of join the dots backwards, reverse up one street the wrong way? Or are they still open to exploration and discussion?
Dan Pilling
Yeah, I'm not necessarily talking about budget in terms of how much they want to spend on it. But that is actually the prime decision framework is often a figures, facts and figures basis. And sometimes that's to do with the people who are making decisions at board level, that that's what that's what that's the framework for their decision making. Whereas, you know, there is obviously other ways to think about it. And that gives, you know, your question was, what are the types of clients the other type, are ones that make those decision based on different factors?
If we're, if we've got a client that talk talks about the, you know, people experience that's like, well, how can that that's a different conversation, you know, if they're talking about wellbeing, if they're talking about, you know, return on experience versus return on investment, or they're talking about diversity inclusion, at that instigation of a conversation, you know, that that that result that that journey can go in a different direction. Clearly cost is a is a is a motivator, but it's one of a number of factors rather than the driving factor.
I really liked taking insight and evidence and making it happen. And for me working for a company, then the builds it is, is what I want. But there is a danger that, you know, we get a call from somebody is already decided what they want. And because of the nature of the design and build industry, it's already in a procurement process. It's in a cycle. And actually, those decision makers might be making it based on a procurement protocol, not necessarily an open ended question because maybe businesses don't ask open ended questions because they don't get something out of it in the right timeframe.
Ian Ellison
It feels like if an uninformed, quote unquote client comes in your direction, their thing, their starting point might be about maybe cost, even though it's not necessarily about budgets, but it might be money is the thing, which is helping us make our decisions. Whereas a more workplace informed, shall we call them client, might be sort of excited about the wellbeing opportunity. And they might, we might be in a situation of buzzword bingo, because they might have read all the headlines on LinkedIn everybody's getting excited about and they might want them or they might be like kids in kids in a candy shop with you. So how do you help sort of lift the uninformed client? And how do you help the informed client? Sort the wheat from the chaff? How do you go about getting into those explorative conversations?
Dan Pilling
I think at the instigation of that relationship, we really look to, to have a sort of, sort of multi-level conversation. So, it's about the facts, the data, how you know, how much space have you got, what you do with that? How was it used? how much how many people? To got to create a baseline, sort of foundation of facts and data. But we power that up with visioning workshops, where we start to look at well, what do we want to achieve from that as a business and that if that relationship has been instigated by a property director, or a facility manager or the CFO, it's going to have a certain output.
And what we do is we encourage that to be as broad brush as it can be, to get that cross section across the business right at the start. And there's always a nervousness about that. Because actually, there's a sense that, is that going to derail this finite budget, this finite program, or maybe an outcome we've already got in mind. But objectively speaking, that's really important. What do you want to get out of it? Before we decide how many chairs there are, what color they are, how much space you need? What do you want to get out of it? And it's interesting, I'm objective, I come into a business, get all kinds of interesting answers.
Ian Ellison
So before it, what you're essentially saying there, I think, is, before we talk about space, let's take space off the table. And let's talk about the other things that you're interested in. So, in some respects, that kind of might set hares racing with a client, because hang on a minute, I thought this was about space. And I thought I could quantify that and budget for it. And you're now suggesting that we go wider and broader. But then equally, you're helping the client, almost, you're sort of trying to rapid evolve a richer understanding of the potential for what you could do with them.
Dan Pilling
Yeah, I think, you know, when, anybody's thinking about the workplace in the moment that, you know, there's, there's evidence that they can see for themselves, you know, many businesses will have rows and rows of empty desks, there'll be confusion about what on earth, that hybrid word means. There'll be, you know, all kinds of work streams that we'll be playing on, you know, there'll be continues to improve, there'll be it all kinds of things are bubbling away. And I think what, what often happens in in my sphere, is the property aspect gets split out. And then well, you know, we'll use that and that'll solve everything, you know, to a certain extent, you know, I could say that, you know, yes, a great workplace environment well designed, you know, will deliver great outcomes. But we've got to understand what outcomes we're trying to we're trying to aim towards. And, you know, there's, there's a danger that you ‘ape’ another organisation, or, you know, WeWork have got beer taps, we need beer taps, Google has beanbags then we beanbags, you know, and you can self, sort of generate a solution. But actually, what's the evidence behind that? And actually, have you genuinely engaged with your people so that what they want?
Ian Ellison
First takeaway is finding the space, even if you don't know you need it, yet. Finding the space for that visioning conversation is kind of like table stakes for early strategic workplace thinking. And whenever you say you're gonna have two things you generally forget the second thing while he's saying about the first thing. Oh, the other one was obviously it's the first workplace keeps commandment is evidence. So even though we might not be talking about deep, super academic model stuff, it's still an evidence-based conversation to get you started.
Dan Pilling
Yeah, you'd be surprised to hear how many businesses don't know how many people come into their buildings each day. Don't know how many people work for them. Don't how much space they've got, and how many desks they have. And you know, this, we often find ourselves and I'm not naming names, because actually, this is this is not necessarily this isn't a blame issue. This is just the pace at which workplace operates. That data isn't necessarily captured. If you make a change to your floor plan. You don't necessarily update the drawing. I think those informed clients who have got those systems in place to capture that data, have a stronger foundation. But what do you do with that data? And I think that that's, you know, gathering the data is one piece. But analysing and turning that into a decision is part of that next piece is interpretation of that data.
Chris Moriarty
Consultants come in and, you know, someone described it to me once is they'll take the watch off your wrist and tell you what the time is, right? But all of a sudden, the consultant wonders in, and the CEO is listening and nodding and all the rest of it. So I guess I just wanted to ask two things. Is that Is there a do you get that sense yourself, where your work with teams in-house that are trying it and they kind of see you guys as a bit of salvation and a bit more power behind the elbow? I think so. And I hope so.
But also, is there a moment where you see the conversation change? You know, you're sort of saying, you think I'm here for a space solution, we're actually going to take you over here where you probably didn't think we were going, which could be uncomfortable, CEO might go hold on a minute, who do you think you are? Why are you asking me? How many people work it? What do you need to let you know, there could be lots of sort of suspicion? But do you? Do you notice a kind of moment where they go? Gotcha. It's all coming together now. So is it typical? Or is it kind of,
Dan Pilling
It kind of goes both ways. I think being objective and providing a baseline of data and observations is a good way to back up your, your key sponsor who you might be working for. But there's also a role for me to challenge some of those preconceptions. And you know, some of the analysis, you know, can be to do with, you know, what your actual occupancy costs his per desk, which is usually quite startling, what your actual utilisation is, again, quite startling. And when we cut back to, you know, what the future looks like, you know, when we talk about hybrid work in the moment, you know, talking about being in the office for two or three days a week equates to an average of, let's say, five to ten, in terms of desk to person ratio, that seems quite progressive. The reality is, most businesses average occupancy was between 50% in 60%, pre COVID. Yeah, so actually, what's really important is, it's not necessarily academic research, because that's as a tome that's quite difficult to translate into those but taking strands of evidence-based insight, to give some context to what people are going through, it's really important, whether it's the same kind of business, or just another business that works like they do. Really important.
Ian Ellison
And that and that's a fascinating, but I wonder if you sort of clocked that figure when you were listening that 50% to 60%, occupancy, pre pandemic, which is kind of been the kind of the figure that whenever you do a utilisation study in pretty much any organisation for the past 20 years, pre pandemic, that was the figure you arrived at. It never ceases to amaze me how organisations and organisational leaders need to see their own figure, they need to sort of pay for that study, that external validation, even though the person coming in to do it for them knows exactly where it's going to be.
Dan Pilling
That's the penny drop. That's the penny drop. No, that's the penny drops when you equate the cost to run that building against the true occupancy. CFO really takes interest at that point.
Ian Ellison
It's why it's such an important metric.
Dan Pilling
And we did a we did a study a couple of years back, just prior to COVID. For large pharmaceutical business, their average was 25%. And actually, when you think about what's the workplace was clearly not for people to sit and work in, in which case, what is it for? And actually, that when asked when this becomes it's not property centric, you know, they've successfully deployed a remote, flexible working policy, it was working really well. But what's the cost of that? You know, the cost of getting people together to innovate, you know, that social capital of people being together? That's the bit that's missing? Not least, where is everybody? You know, Where's the joy of coming to work at that point?
Chris Moriarty
You've mentioned the pandemic a couple of times, you mentioned COVID? How do you think perspectives have changed? And how is your perspective change? I guess, you know, either personally, or as part of the TSK group, because like you mentioned earlier on, you're in the business of building offices, I could imagine March 2020, wasn't a fantastic month at TSK group, you know, would have been quite reasonably and I think a lot of people involved in workplace in any way, shape or form, we're having a few gulp moments, wondering what's going on. But how's that held that kind of reaction evolved, you know, let's say start pandemic, kind of middle, whenever the middle of the pandemic was and where we're sort of emerging from now?
Ian Ellison
But I remember that that period of time and obviously, of minor concern, it's fair to say that, you know, a lot of projects were kind of pushed into the long grass foot for good reason. But as a business, we got our heads together. And we did a lot of kind of deep thought internally, and then we took that conversation out to customers or clients, and we focus for the rest of that year in just having really interesting conversation, somebody on a webinar, but you know, we gained out feedback, and we shared it. And it was that sort of, you know, sort of experimentation phase. And we talked about what this could mean, we talked, we talked to HR people, we talked with a lot of HR people. We talked to, you know, a broad spectrum of the industry, that then would inform how we could approach you what value we could add, because clearly a solution wasn't going to be a binary, everybody worked from home, we hoped, or everybody worked from the office, it was going to be somewhere in between, and the key factors that had to fall into place, the vaccine being one of them. So we tried to think in terms of the long term perspective of what the future could look like, maybe avoid some of those kind of knee jerk reactions of like, the six foot office that was bandied around that nobody wants everybody to keep equidistance from each other, despite the fact we were all breathe same air. You know, there was, there was some, you know, everybody was trying to find some solutions, which were all useful to push that conversation on. But, you know, past two years, you know, there's a lot of decisions have gone into a holding pattern for good reason, with a view that, you know, when there was an end to this, you know, things will change, perspectives will change. But interestingly, you know, two years later, there's no end, you know, there's changes, the situation has changed and developed. But we are starting to see that, you know, decision making is stepped up a gear now. As people are realizing, well, we can't just wait, we still got this empty real estate, what are we going to do with it?
Ian Ellison
Is it too soon? Or is it is this too? Or is this an unfair question to ask? Are they different types of commission's coming in your direction? Or are they still based in the same places of, you know, the same sort of workplace questions from either informed or uninformed clients?
Dan Pilling
Yeah, I think it's been an education process for people. I mean, you know, no CEO can avoid the evidence of empty rows and rows of desks. And actually, when we when we talk about what the potential is to unlock this new way of working, the question choice or mandate of big whether people should return who owns that is that, you know, the MD is that the CFO? Is that head of HR? Where does that decision lie? Because actually, if you leave it to choice, we're seeing clients who have got empty real estate still, you know, for good reason that they're, you know, they're enabling, they're empowering their people to choose when and how they come to work. But there isn’t that, that shift towards return to work for all kinds of good, good reasons. So I think what we're finding is that there is a vacuum of solutions. And often what we hear is, what your other clients doing. And I think there's real value in that now is to keep on sharing those stories and solutions, collectively.
Chris Moriarty
is there a bit of knee jerk going on? I mean, is interesting. That last, I was thinking about, asked me about knee jerk reactions, because my kind of, I guess my worry would be simply like, CEOs going, alright, I've read this, I've read that I've read that that's what we need, you know, kind of making some assumptions and get someone in to do it. So, I wonder about knee jerk. But it's interesting, what you're saying there as well is that there's this kind of where other people do in which we always get asked, I mean, I was always asked about, I used to sell benchmarks, right. So I get that people always want to know what someone else is doing. But particularly now, where there's so many moving plates, you know, people are so concerned about, like, I had all these assumptions, they're now all up in the window. Just tell me, you know, I'm almost like an anxiety like, just I want to get this right. But I have no idea. So, what else can we do? Like, give me the cookie cutter? That's what I'm looking for, which is not, we all know, it's not the right approach. But yeah, have you seen a kind of change in behaviour,
Dan Pilling
the role of data and insight and research is quite, it's quite important. Because, yes, it's important to practitioners, to the people I speak to, it's got to be specific to them, it's got to relate to them, ideally, of them. And I think when we use that set of data, hopefully against the context of wider patterns that assist people in making informed decisions, and I think that that's my, my job at the instigation is, is to give people as much data and insight, guide them towards not just one solution, but some scenarios
That look towards delivering those objectives and those objectives. It's really important, those objectives are different. They're specific to each business. And I think getting people to think like that kind of tea depressurize it, you can't get the right solution. Because….go on.
Chris Moriarty
He does that all the time. He takes that deviant take a breath, he wants to interrupt, but he doesn't want to interrupt, but he really wants to interrupt. I'll let him interrupt.
Ian Ellison
I do like interrupting. So, okay, so I will I was going to ask you about what the stuff you did in terms of sort of data capture and research looked like, and let's call it in the old world pre- pandemic, and then I was gonna go and what what's changed? What does it look like post pandemic? Is it the same processes? Do you have a methodology, which you stick to, and it's a practical one Your work methodology, but it's the thing you do nonetheless. Or has it changed and you start to mention scenarios there. So that made me kind of go, oh, I wonder if that's a bit different. So we don't have to spend long on this Dan, because we can get into practical guidance next. And then we can get into getting folk asking questions and stuff. But just what's changed in terms of your methodologies, if anything, in terms of how you get that great data for your clients,
Dan Pilling
Pre-COVID, there was a sense that there was a sort of defensiveness, that maybe we were trying to justify a change that maybe didn't need to happen. And, you know, there's always a danger when you work in a design field, that you'll seem to be selling the new. And at that that's always a tension. And from my perspective, it was really important to get baseline data talked about how things really were, you know, we use utilisation data to talk about patterns of occupancy to build a context and foundation that was really interesting, don't need utilisation data anymore, is actually, you know, the relevance of past data is questionable. To be honest, the relevance of how you felt about going to the office two years ago, could be questionable. And actually, what we're what we're focusing on is, is informed scenarios that that look to strategic objectives. And actually we’re forwards, looking, where possible, we back that up, but the relevance of that of that previous historical data, the relevance, I struggle often to see how that informs what happens next. One major thing is, if there's an element of personal choice involved in that, that didn't exist two years ago.
Chris Moriarty
So, context has changed
Dan Pilling
Massively, yeah, the landscape completely different.
Ian Ellison
And so that bit you said about scenario planning? How does that look practically? Then how do you go about unfolding that sort of piece of work?
Dan Pilling
This is all behind the paywall. It's trying to address the the factors that are going to inform business case, you know, there has to be a cost factor there, there's a size, a function factor, those objectives factor. So in principle, we look to create scenarios that deliver against, you know, certain cost savings and cost metrics, we look to put a space budget against that. And if a client's downsizing or moving to new building, we need to know how big it is. We need to know what goes what goes in it. And we also then need to understand from a cultural behavioral perspective, what do we want to happen?
Ian Ellison
So is that the extra layer? Because presumably, you know, if you're looking at different options for different physical space solutions, that in the past, maybe you do need some sort of different data points now. But is it the layering of the more behavioral choice piece that the pandemic has unlocked? That is the extra complication complexity?
Dan Pilling
I think so. But I think people are more aware of it. There's acutely aware, you know, if you if you've been watching your empty real estate for two years, and you've been watching the bills stay static, you can't really ignore that. So actually, there's rock solid evidence that everybody's seeing that that is informing, possibly a more proactive approach going forward. So I get a sense actually, there's more there's a willingness to try different things for not for the sake of it, to actually realise what the business is trying to try and to achieve attraction, retention, being massive factors, you know, if you've had colleagues that been working remotely for two years, that could just really easily get fed up? And actually, what's the role of the physical workplace to actually help re-tie those bonds, that kind of cultural glue that holds your business together so that the purpose of the office is a massive part of that? And actually, that, in principle, starts that process of what you need. Now, back to brass tax really.
Chris Moriarty
It reminds me I mean, I wrote a lot of stuff, show anyone that was in the workplace game found themselves writing lots of stuff, or reading lots of stuff, when the pandemic happened, there is this kind of cliche, almost cliched kind of idea that what the pandemic did was separate the idea of place and work in that, you know, it wasn't it wasn't just a kind of given that, you know, this is a place where you get to where you can do anywhere, and it was, I think I saw the whole, you know, works not somewhere you go to, you know that we've seen all that. But I guess you would have been talking about that pre-pandemic, anyway. And they will move on. Yeah, whatever. But now, I guess what you're saying is, well, we've proven it. There's two years where we've proven and it's kind of sharpened the focus of people that are a bit more receptive to hearing it now, because they know that their assumptions are broken down, because a lot of these business leaders would have been panicking, I guess, about a remote workforce, and they looked at the numbers and when as much as they're looking at the numbers, the bills, they're also looking at revenue and as long as your organisation you weren't in the venture business A lot of people didn't see the revenues do the nosedive that a lot of people would have worried about. So I guess that's set up a different conversation, right?
Dan Pilling
I think it has. The other piece is not to assume it's a one size fits all. And that everybody is, you know, a beanbag loving, collaborative latte drinking, you know, office bod, who's just floats around and does a little bit of email. I think it's really important, you know, the experiences we've had is things like, call handling operations, traditionally, always office based, from a supervisory technology perspective. Work with clients in the banking sector have deployed remote paying secure paying platforms, they've been able to hire a whole new demographic. Their measurables are phenomenal, because call handling metrics really easy to capture, they focus their in office activity, or team building activity, focusing on KPIs reviews, problem solving. So actually, traditional roles that would often you know, there was no way they were going to be remote with, they've been proven to work more effectively, in a distributed manner. But you know, it doesn't come without its own challenges, you know, an incoming demographic into the business, you know, let's say, you know, college graduates, they need to learn, you know, that they need to understand the way the business operates that sector. Who do they learn from when the senior leaders are in a garden office, you know, we're great Wi Fi, coffee on tap. So, you know, it's, it's, it's not an easy solution to unpick and actually, that the solution isn't, you know, binary, and in terms of office or home, but when we come to what it is, each business needs to understand how to unlock it.
Chris Moriarty
Let's say for instance, people are listening either on the podcast or in the room, that our workplace team, other than you can't answer by saying they need to call TSK Group, I'm sure that they can do that. That's, that's that option is available to them. But what practical guidance would you be giving to workplace professionals? And I say that with the broad church in mind, but people that are trying to make change in their organisation? What advice would you give to them? What advice would you set out for them?
Dan Pilling
I think the first thing really is to is to create a coalition in your business of like-minded people across the spectrum who are all going towards the same goal. If you represent property strand, you need an HR strand, and IT strand a chain strands, D&I strand. You need to get those strands aligned, so you're working towards the same goal. I think the other piece really is to is to get a really good strong baseline of where you're at, yeah, you know, data on what facilities you have, how big they are, how well utilised they are. And then the kind of qualitative aspects of what's the experience of coming into the office at the moment. And actually, this is within everybody's gift, within an organisation to gather information, it may, it may exist in a different part of the business, gathering that, playing that back to you, somebody might need an external party to help you do that. Because, you know, there's a lot of politics involved and ownership of these experiences. But actually, if you can have an external party to hold a mirror up to you, that's really useful, because actually, that that'll set a sort of a different path. I think, rather than maybe assuming that it's a you know, property centric problem you're trying to solve.
Chris Moriarty
Who's inspiring you right now in the world of work and workplace what thinking is getting you thinking,
Dan Pilling
Well, I've actually bought a prop. I have bought a book called ‘The Nowhere Office’ by Julia Hobsbawm, which I can heartily recommend it was, I'm not anywhere near halfway through it yet. There's too many spreadsheets for me to be keeping my time involved with. But it's, it's a wealth of information. It's also a really interesting, fresh perspective. And I'm trying to read a lot of perspectives at the moment about this subject so I can provide that good backdrop to people. There's a really interesting aspect of it. And she describes our use the dreadful version water cooler moments. I don't use that word water cooler moments, but she refers to it as birdsong. As he says, birdsong is a powerful way to describe the unique communication between humans, the exchange of knowledge, opinion, information, intelligence and emotion. And this is impossible to fully capture or replicate digitally.
For me, that's really encapsulates the bit that's missing. And I'm sure we've all had days, back-to-back video calls all day. There's no glue between those calls. And there's actually that what's really interesting a face-to-face meeting is the bit of chat either side that you do where you actually connect with people. Or you might go sit down on someone's desk and actually shoot the breeze. That's the bit that's missing. One of the bits that's missing, but I love the way she described it as birdsong. So, I could hearty recommend a read of that.
Ian Ellison
So. Nowhere Office, Julia Hobsbawm. She was recently on Eat.Sleep.Work.Repeat I think with Bruce Daisley, and she's also been on the Office Chronicles with Kursty Groves. So there's a couple of pods You can listen to on the way home with Julia Hobsbawm speaking if you're interesting.
Chris Moriarty
Well, she did that podcast for the book as well. Yeah, she did her own bit as well. So if you want to read, you don't want to read the book, you can just listen to podcast. Save yourself a few days.
Dan Pilling
You do like podcast?
Chris Moriarty
I do like a podcast. Yeah.
So we are now at Q&A. This is your moment to shine people. Who would like to ask a question of Dan Pilling
Brock James
Hello, I'm Brock James from iOtSpace. I'm seeing a lot of news companies at the moment saying that the return to office has peaked. And I'm looking at all my customers and seeing 20 to 40% occupancy in the buildings across all industries. I want to ask you, Dan, if you're seeing a similar trend across your clients, and what are your thoughts on that
Dan Pilling
I’d agree, I’d agree. There's a there's a rail organisation we're working with. And that's what they're saying, honestly, that that product is the bit that gets people to the offices. So it's really interesting that they're seeing it on both sides. They're they're seeing on a reduction of travel, on a reduction of occupancy. I think there's we're still in a dynamic situation. And I think there's certain people are happier traveling, some people are happier going into the office. There's still large cohorts of working populations that aren't. I think there's a there's a kind of communication of narrative around this that's missing. Some businesses we're speaking to the splintered we'll see a desire at leadership level to work towards a hybrid working model with all the benefits. Middle management, a saying so it's five days a week, then is it yeah? And then the more operational parts of the business, are then unsure of who to speak to. So I think there's a maturity that we haven't reached yet. I don't think we've reached a peak, because we're still in COVID. But I think businesses now need to think about what they want, and maybe pull the balance back from it being fully individual choice.
Chris Moriarty
But have you settled DAn into a new work pattern? Have you? Have you found that yet?
Dan Pilling
Me personally?
I was a distributed worker anyway. So my pattern hasn't really changed. But what I found because I, I would typically, I’m East Midlands, our HQ is in Salford in Manchester, I would typically go in once a week. What I found is video calling has blown my mind in terms of the relationships I have with my colleagues. So actually, the quality of interaction is it's not equitable to be in that face to face. Because now that we're seeing an increase in occupancy back in office offices, dialing in feels like a poor or poor, poor relative again, that's what I'm feeling. And it's that liminal spaces bit, which I think is his was was it was lacking.
Stuart Watts
Hi, I'm Stuart Watts from the Government Property Agency. I was just interested in what you were saying around the data points and having sort of one organisation in one building. And I wonder how you've helped through your workplace strategy work around multiple occupants when you're trying to build community, healthy communities in a shared building, and how you might get those companies to think differently about how they use those spaces on a social value concept as well and how they might be reaching out to their local communities.
Dan Pilling
Or there's an organisation of growing mine. It's a quasi-public sector organization, and four storey building, a director only floor. And actually, that, you know, that would come around because of the piece I spoke about before the idea of cost center, charging space back to cost centers, everything is a transactional approach. But what they want to now do with the building is exactly what you say co-locate multiple partners, they want the idea of for the common good as your kind of mega concept for them, you know, creating facilities that are shared, that actually, there's an equitable experience in these are quite big concepts for that business.
And what we're trying to do is help them talk to help them through navigating at a leadership level, what that means who needs to say what to sign this off, in the middle management level, what that means. And then, you know, the meeting room is a really good way to explain it. Block booking a meeting room, that kind of that cultural challenge. It doesn't work in a multi tenancy building, it doesn't work in any buildings to be honest, because, you know, that, that that, you know, with the best will, you're trying to, you know, get the facilities you need for your team or your director. But actually, unpicking some of these behaviours is that really best starting point to have essentially like a 10 commandments for the building? What that what equitable ways of working looks like and then there's no two ways about it. It's a long, hard slog of engagement.
But what's really important, I think, which we're trying to encourage this client to do at the moment is not just to give that job to somebody in addition to their day job. Is bring somebody who specialises in in change management, it's going to help you do that. Because if you think about it, let's say it cost you 25 grand for a year's worth of supports, you know, several days a month, the equivalent in terms of what furniture you might buy, that's going to pay back in spades because that you need to engage people into this. And it needs to resonate with him. So treat it as a people project first, that would be my advice.
Chris Moriarty
One of the things I wonder as well, you know, have you come across this, we've been talking about having too much space. And that's one of the things we talked about utilisation data, you've talked in here about social value and community and I was at a conference, and I think it was Leo Johnson, whose brother, it's got a fairly important job in Westminster. And he was talking about how that sort of space, that spare space, rather than thinking about it from a commercial real estate point of view suddenly becomes a kind of a social instrument. Okay, what are the groups can we get in here, he was even talking about using the space for kind of urban farming and all this sort of stuff, which has a sustainability role. So, I've been I've been met organisations, without wanting to use another kind of water cooler type phrase, thinking outside the box. Dan. Have you got people thinking outside the box about what they do? Inside the box?
Dan Pilling
I think if you've if you've signed yourself up to a 15 year lease, you probably have to. I think sensible ones are trying to get out of leases, to be honest, I think if, if you've got that much space, you can create a garden. That's, that's great and noble. But that's not the world that I often operate it.
But I think the idea of, of community within your organisation is a good starting point. I was at a session about 10 days ago, and somebody use the word friendship as a reason why you come into it. Funny idea that, isn't it? But actually, you know, if you create spaces for people to be friends in the office, what a crazy idea that that that will be.
But you know, you don't, you know, working at a desk is probably not the best setup for that maybe somewhere we'd go, good cup of Joe, that, you know, there's no screens, there's no phones ringing that feels comfortable, that that would be a really good start. So I think yes, if you have that long term vision, and you know, the financial commitment to it, all that kind of stuffs great, but I'd start with the with what matters to people, and what takes their box and ask them.
And I think there's a there's always a danger that that the decision makers in an organisation who tend to be more senior, they make an assumption that will the staff just want some you know, they want a ping pong table, don't they? Or are they want to foosball table or, you know, make sweeping assumptions about what people want? Good, good place to start is asking, ask people what they want.
Ian Ellison
Okay, I think we've got time for one more question.
Steve Henigan
So Steve Henigan from HCG, you referenced the Zoom calls earlier. And I think it's something we're seeing on almost every one of our projects, every one of our clients, that is something which is going to be here to stay with this new way of work and a kind of increased volume of video conference and in the office. What innovations are you seeing at the moment to help overcome the noise levels and the acoustics that come with that?
Dan Pilling
Well, I'd start off with an observation that I made about six weeks ago. What I'm noticing is younger demographics who are fresh to the workplace, who haven't experienced that the video conference boardroom with a laminated sheet on the incomprehensible technology, don't need a boardroom.
And this particular organisation, half the staff were on a video call. They all had their screens up, you know, with stuff going on behind them, they didn't really care now, whether they didn't care, or they just didn't have anywhere to do it. That's a different question. But I think there's an ease with which most of us now will have a Team's or a Zoom call in our non-boardroom environment. And I think that that's been a bit of a game changer. It always felt a bit odd. Previously, when somebody it was Skype back then was somebody doing a Skype call in the office, people would duck and wouldn't want to be included on it. But actually, that that's a bit of a game changer because you can't just create a sound absorbent boardroom to put all your video calls in because it's, you know, the cats out of the bag video calling is everywhere.
So I think it's important to think about the background levels of acoustic performance. And a lot of the time bass build architecture doesn't necessarily do that you'll have a metal pan ceiling which will give you an element of absorbency you'll then fill the space with leather hard furniture so bounces all those sound waves around. So, I think considering general acoustic performance in the space is really important. Equipping people with decent headsets is really important on the assumptions that he might not necessarily have a room to do it in but from a spatial design perspective and playing back against historical data. I'm contradicting myself here. Utilisation data always showed that eight and ten person boardrooms, usually two or three people in so when we're designing conceiving new spaces, calling the big meeting rooms loads of ones and twos, small spaces for people to drop in phone booths, and not necessarily making them bookable or making them ad hoc. Because I think the nature of video calling is not necessarily a one hour appointment. You might just video call someone apropos of nothing. And I certainly we as a business, that's our go to, which is video call each other. And we've kind of got used to speaking with people in the background, but it's that background level of acoustic absorbers in most workplaces just don't have because it's never it's never really been thought about.
Chris Moriarty
Ladies and gentlemen, we've come to the end of the Workplace Geeks first ever live podcast. Thank you for joining us. I know that the afternoon have a conference isn't the best time to attract an audience where you've made us feel very loved. Just talking of love. Liam's gone. I saw your colleague Liam sneak out who does a lot of this, but I just wanted to say. Dan, you talked about TSK when the kind of when a catastrophe happened and you guys were rethinking stuff, the quality of the work the TSK were producing the research the insight, not just listening to people you were you were sharing it with the audience as well his top drawer so if you've got a chance do go and have a look at I was so impressed with what you do. And I know Liam leads a lot of that work and he probably knew I was gonna be nice about him so he left. But yeah, check that out. But ladies and gentlemen, Dan Pilling from TSK Group.
Thank you very much.
-- Outro –
Chris Moriarty
Now, regular listeners are probably expecting to hear a dial tone at this point, followed by the silky smooth tones of James Pinder for our regular Pender ponder, but James won't be joining us today, as he's apparently on a dry stone walling course, in Cumbria. So you’re stuck with Ian and I.
Ian, what did you take away from our chat with Dan?
Ian Ellison
I think three key things kind of stand out to me from that. One is that, let's be honest, right, great workplace insight work is being done out there all the time. But one of the biggest barriers to it is finding that balance between sort of client roles, responsibilities, knowledge and expertise, and that of the delivery partner, whether it's a consultancy, or whatever organisation type it is. It's that that bit, which means that both roles can bring the good stuff to the table. And then you can develop a really nice trusting relationship. That bit that Dan was talking about, well, we encouraged him to sort of keep going and keep going about it, Chris, but that bit where, you know, sort of informed clients or less informed clients, and how the sort of power within the relationship, how the roles within the relationship affect the quality of the outcome ultimately. I think that's a really a really important thing to bear in mind.
Chris Moriarty
And you've got to I guess, Dan was sort of hinting at, you've got to tread carefully as well, because someone might have to use your intro. You know, when you talked about TSK by being very much in the workspace, part of the Venn diagram, but with an appreciation and understanding of the impact of the other parts of it. If a client is kind of pigeonholed you into work space, are they not going to feel a bit kind of unsure or uneasy when you start talking to him about what's your culture like? And how's your IT systems set up to support this way at work? So I guess you've got to tread carefully. And that for me, Dan, sounds like he's got a knack for just easing into those conversations without kind of dropping them on an unsuspecting client.
Ian Ellison
Yeah, very much so. I guess yeah, if you look at it through that lens, if you've engaged an organization to work with you about what in your mind is specifically one thing, and it hasn't yet dawned on you just how interlinked these things are when it comes to workplace? Yes, sometimes you need that trust, and you need that space. And maybe you need some evidence to really start to show how linked they are. But yeah, absolutely, you know, Dan is well versed. He's had a long and auspicious career, in it with different organisations kind of revealing that stuff.
So, second thing for me is this idea that when things become less known about the future, in terms of what you might want to do, what your options might be, there are still ways to do powerful evidence based work. So, this is this idea where it's not just about, you know, following the headlines and gazing into crystal balls is actually about really constructive scenario planning as a route to going well, let's really explore what our options might be. So, we can make strong workplace decisions.
Chris Moriarty
I suppose that gets you into kind of organisational culture. And I don't mean per organization, I just mean like the culture of business. And what drives it? Is it risk averse; therefore, we only look at the risks of something and try and scope them out. Is it focused on revenue, so only looks at that? And guess what you're saying is everyone wants to know what the future looks like? Because of those sorts of things. But actually, the reality is, you can look at your existing situations, and map those out through good evidence and use them as a kind of template for different paths that can be taken.
Ian Ellison
Yeah. And if you think about it like that, then it's impossible to do that stuff in a holistic, kind of broad way, without getting the right workplace players and business players around the table, or else, your perspective is going to be very one or only two dimensional, rather than kind of more holistic.
And, you know, scenario planning is, you know, there are good tried and tested techniques that you can look up, and you can try to be able to do that stuff as well. So, you know, it's not that this is a new thing, it's that, you know, active scenario, planning has been a way of strategising forwards for a long, long time.
Okay. And the third thing for me, Chris, is that, you know, just really, really straightforward, really, but academic work can inform all of this stuff. But when the chips are down, and you have multiple clients, and you're trying to keep all of them happy, and you're juggling a million things, and spinning all of those plates, like we all do, finding the space to learn is often challenging, but that's not you know, as much as Dan's original challenge to us was, you know, what about the real world? Well, you got to challenge yourself to learn and keep developing. And I know that Dan does that. And I know that we all try and do this. But you know, for me, academic work really can inform all of this. And that's the purpose of Workplace Geeks.
Chris Moriarty
Indeed. And I suppose from my perspective, the things I was thinking about that my first kind of thought jumps off the back of what you're talking about there about academic work. I can only think about my own personal experience with this sort of stuff, which is looking at education, generally in the education system without getting into a big kind of political debate about education, and what should be on national syllabi, and things like that. But a lot of the stuff I found, we talk about, about research methodology, about approaches to critical thinking, and all that sort of stuff. This is all stuff that I didn't know anything about, until my mid to late 30s. Right? You know, this was something that I just it wasn't on my radar. And that's, that might be because I didn't go to university, once I finished my sixth form education, I went straight into work. And maybe if I'd stayed on, I would have a bit more of an appreciation for it. But I just, I just sort of think that organisations are so desperate for insights, so desperate for data, there's so much data about, it just feels like there's a massive skills gap with some of this stuff. And at the moment, the only real solution to that is very busy senior professionals going back into adult learning. And that's not easy for lots of different reasons, because it costs a bomb. It takes time. And we've got other commitments by that point, you know?
Ian Ellison
Yeah. And it's funny, you should say that because I did go to university. And I'm not saying that to kind of play Top Trumps with you, it's that I did go to university. And none of that stuff registered with me the first time around it was when I went back. And exactly that kind of adult sort of reeducation thing happened and the penny dropped that all of these things sit in the background. So all of the stuff that goes on in the world, and the way the world makes decisions, and it does really matter.
But that's what's really interesting about accuracies. Only recently was I listening to an episode of Desert Island Discs, and the guest was Sir David Spiegelhalter, who is one of probably the most famous academics in this country. He's a statistician with an absolutely incredible way of explaining things. And in his introduction, he was basically arguing for just what you've said that this, you know, data awareness and data capability. And the ability to think more critically about stuff isn't taught in schools, and it absolutely should be now there's no way we can get through the world without it.
Chris Moriarty
Correct. And social media is a great example of where critical thinking might be useful.
The other thing I thought about off the back of Dan's chat was patienc and organisations, you know, just kind of get the feeling that with the pace of change with the pressures that everyone's under, and I get it is that sometimes we just a bit guilty of getting something done, instead of getting something done right, and taking that pause of breath just to step back and to think about something.
Now, talking of other things we've listened to recently, you put me on to the Radio Lab podcast, and they were talking about naming and it's an amazing episode about the power of names, but in that they talk about pausing, and they were talking about an agency that helps medical professionals, they just take one more breath, to have a little bit of a longer think about what you might be looking at. And I guess I'd love to see that and organisations that said, you know, we just want to just take one more breath. That's just haven't one more think about it. But I guess if you've got Dan in then in effect, they've sort of accepted they could do with some help about that. But I just kind of felt he was sort of hinting at as well, that there's this sort of pace thing that doesn't lend itself to the stuff we talk about to the papers we talk about because I think Susan, in our last episode said, you know, this paper was published in 2005, which means the work was done in 2002. You know, that just gives you an idea of the pace of some of these projects that turned into papers that turn into publications. And I just don't think that's compatible with organisations at the moment.
Ian Ellison
Well, I got a couple of reflections on that one, that thing about taking a breath that you got from the radio lab podcast, which is a very good podcast, you're, you're quite correct. There's a famous physicist called David Bohm, who developed a method of dialogue, which sometimes gets called Bohm Dialogue. And I don't know much about it. I know somebody who advocates using it as a very, very powerful way to have creative discussions.
But one of the rules I'm aware of, or one of the recommendations is, before you speak, you take a breath. And if you think about what that means, it means no more interrupting, it means giving space to discuss, it means being patient. I'm aware of the irony of no more interrupting on me.
But let's be honest, how often are we just literally waiting for gaps in conversations to assert our perspective. More broadly, to whether organisations are guilty of just getting something done your original observation or not? It's interesting, because I see a lot of that, I also see a lot of sitting on fences. And you know, there's an awful lot of organisations now, having done nothing other than just kind of let folks work in whatever hybrid fashion during the pandemic, or during this, these early stages of the pandemic, now, kind of going crikey, what do we do, and almost scrambling at speed when there could have been thinking and learning beforehand. So, it's interesting that it's not just fast or slow, it's almost like prolonged procrastination can then lead to an almighty rush that could have been avoided, perhaps.
Chris Moriarty
My one last point, and it's one that you and I shouldn't criticise too much. Because we, we, we earn money off the back of this, but this idea about external voices and external thinking and consultants coming in, and my, my kind of point about, you know, taking your watch off your wrist and telling you the time, I just, I just wonder what you know, it just got me thinking about what the psychology of that and it kind of reminds me of any time that me and Mrs. M, may have a disagreement, and then she'll probably watch me go in agree with someone who makes the exact same point as her but because it's someone else, somehow I don't hear it. And, you know, I just I don't know what I think about that. I just, I just find it funny. And I just find it interesting, on a psychological level. But that, you know, that is quite often the case, quite often the case that I find, and I'm sure you have as well, and Dan kind of touched on it as well, that an external voice can just shift your perspective slightly.
Ian Ellison
Yeah, and there is more than one thing going on inside this as well. And it's interesting that you labeled it as psychological because there probably is a good old chunk of that stuff. There might also be some sociological stuff in there and, and other things as well. You know, that idea that definitely an external perspective can show you alternatives that perhaps you hadn't seen, they're sort of fresh set of eyes effect if you're gonna give it like a layman's phrase. But equally, I think what you're talking about there is maybe the gravitas or the validation that comes with hearing something from outside that you had exactly the same thing internally, but it just didn't register or have so much weight. And there's stuff there about the way power is distributed in organisations the stuff they're about which voices do and don't get heard. It's an interesting one, your comment there about you and Mrs. M takes me back to you know, anytime that you are, it's very hard to teach a family member a new sport, isn't it? Whereas, you know, you might be a coach of a football team and able to teach all the other kids or something. The dynamics of family and the dynamics of close relationships can give, make all sorts of things tricky. And when you magnify that up into organisations, yeah, you're not wrong. That stuff goes on.
Chris Moriarty
Yeah, that example of sports reminds me of this weekend, I had my niece's over. And one of them's learning to ride their bike. And they came in because they were finding it frustrating that their Dad was trying to teach them and it was going, it was getting a little spicy. So, I went out and helped. And it was just a calmer environment. And I came in and I thought if that was one of my kids, I definitely would have done it like that. It's amazing, isn't it? Just it just a whole thing. So little shout out to Sienna, my little niece who was on her bike, learning how to ride. And she will be my key witness if anyone ever accuses me of losing patience with my own children when it comes to them learning to ride a bike.
So that's all for now, James, we'll be back next time so the Pinder Ponder fanclub can hold back on their strongly worded emails. He'll be joining us in the next episode, and he will also be able to do some dry-stone walling, which will be another feather in his cap.
In the meantime, look out for us on LinkedIn, you can just search for Workplace Geeks, use #workplacegeeks to feedback and continue the discussion. And don't forget to email Ian and I on hello@workplacegeeks.org. You might even have an upcoming event that you want a live Workplace Geeks episode recorded that so do get in touch. Speak to you soon
