-- Intro --
Chris Moriarty
Hello and welcome to Workplace Geeks, the podcast that is on a mission to pursue track and chase after the world's leading workplace research and to talk to the amazing people behind it. I'm Chris Moriarty.
Ian Ellison
And I'm in Ellison.
Chris Moriarty
And we are about your humble guides on this voyage of discovery as we unpick the nuance of workplace performance one study at a time, except today is not about a study as such is it Ian? Why don't you explain our slight deviation to the audience?
Ian Ellison
Well, today, Chris, we are back in Workplace Geeks book club mode again, and I'm delighted to say that we've got Gabriella Braun on the show. She's the director of her own Working Well consultancy, and she's also the author of All That We Are: Uncovering the hidden truths behind our behaviours at work. And I have to say I'm chuffed to bits about this one because I've had this book on my reading list long before we had the opportunity to have Gabriella on the show as a guest. And if you think of workplace as that broad church if you remember all the way back to Episode One and our commandments about workplace, this is very much in the people facet of workplace and it is super important.
So just to set the scene and I hope it's okay with you. I'm just gonna read you the first couple of paragraphs from the introduction of her book just to show how incredibly relevant and how powerful it is
“starting with us remove the desks and chairs the computers and cupboards, the factory floor or operating theatre and you have people, just people and everything we as people bring to our workplaces, our hopes, our fears, our histories and personalities. Our thoughts and feelings, attitudes and beliefs are understandable and unfathomable behaviours. We bring all that we our work does far more than occupy our time and provide our livelihood it provides an outlet for our intelligence and skills. It's part of our identity, a source of belonging and exclusion, of pleasure and pain, the dynamics of different relationships in the workplace giving rise to issues of power, status, equality, caMarraderie and competition touch every one of us and every part of us much as we may want to, we cannot leave aspects of ourselves outside the building or virtual space when we go to work.”
Chris Moriarty
And with that lovely introduction, here is our chat with Gabriella Braun.
-- Interview –
Chris Moriarty
Gabriella, thank you for joining in and on the Workplace Geeks podcast. Before we get into the piece of work that we want to talk about today, just tell us a little bit about you and your work.
Gabriella Braun
So, my work is working with organisations, with teams with leaders, I see people individually and I see people in groups and I help them to work as best they can. And that involves, from my work, applying psychoanalytic thinking and systemic thinking to the workplace and understanding what goes on in the workplace
Ian Ellison
Psychoanalytic thinking and systemic thinking before we go any further, perfect opportunity, just tell us what those things are. And let's start digging from there if that's alright
Gabriella Braun
So psychoanalytic thinking, I think some people may think it's a very weird thing to apply to the workplace. And they might also think, Oh, God, isn't that all about your mother and Freud? And isn't Freud meant to be rubbish now? And I'd say no, Freud really isn't rubbish. Now, some of his theories, of course, people have developed, and he developed his own theories, a huge amount during his massive body of work. But actually, what he did that was amazing was really think about the unconscious in terms of psychological treatment, and what it's telling us and what we can do with it. And for me, that continues to be enormously beneficial and enormously helpful in thinking about the workplace. So, when I say I apply psychoanalytic thinking, I'm not obviously psychoanalysing anybody, and I'm not trained to do that. But I am trained to use it use the thinking in in organisational work. So, a large part of that is thinking about all those things that are buried under the carpet that we don't see. We don't talk about but they're affecting this nonetheless, all the time. And they may often be unconscious.
Ian Ellison
Got you. So, it's not that classic, stereotypical, walk into a room and lie on a couch and talk sort of stuff. It's rolling your sleeves up and getting in amongst it in organisations working with leadership teams, working with whoever so that they I can essentially perform better
Gabriella Braun
Yes, perform better, but also get on better, you know, some organisations do us terrible damage, we can get very ill and miserable at work. So, it's about trying to understand some of what goes on that takes things off course so badly between people and trying to put that right and help people not to get in such difficult places. And then of course, we perform better.
Ian Ellison
And what about the systems bit then.
Gabriella Braun
So, there are two aspects of systems thinking that I use. And I use them with psychoanalytic thinking. Because after all, we are talking the workplace, we're not talking about someone lying on the couch and having treatment for themselves personally, and the workplace is a system. So, the first part of systems thinking is open systems thinking where you think of, and I'll be a bit crude here, but think of the organisation like a body. So, we have to take things in over the boundary, body wise, we take in food, we take in air, we have to or will die, we also have to let things out. So, we have to digest food, we have to go to the toilet, or we'll die, we have to breathe out as well. And organisations are the same. They have to take things in, they do things to them, and they have to let them out or they die.
Ian Ellison
So, even though sometimes organisations a treat themselves as isolated, they recognise their boundaries, what you're saying is they're part of an ecosystem. And the only way an organisation can perform is with the inputs and the outputs that come with that, totally. And that was one bit what was the other bit of the system.
Gabriella Braun
The other bit that I find really helpful is thinking about using thinking from systemic family therapy. So systemic family therapy, thinks of the family as a system. And if say you go to a systemic family therapist with your daughter, and you're at your wit's end about your troublesome daughter, a systemic family therapist will look at this family as a system and see the whole family together. Other therapists may very likely to bring in mum and dad. But they're thinking priMarrily about the daughter, systemic family therapist, just thinking what's happening in this system.
And what is this child of representing for this system, I find that really helpful in the workplace, because sometimes, an individual or a team or a department represent something for the whole system. And if you think of it that way, you know where to intervene. So, a quick example, I was asked years ago to work with a dysfunctional team. Things have gone very badly wrong. There were two major teams in this organisation. And I was asked by the senior leaders to work with the team that were going so wrong. And I said, I'll work with them. But I also want to work with the leadership team. Because I suspect this is more of an organisational issue. And if I only work with that one team, you're just keeping it locked, you're keeping a problem, you're trying to keep it locked in that team, who will never recover. If you don't think about the wider organisation.
Chris Moriarty
I'm, I'm already hooked, I have a feeling we're gonna have to watch ourselves by the end of this interview, meaning it might be telling you about our childhoods, and about all the all the pressures we come under. But it is a fascinating topic. And that's a nice kind of leap into the book because it feels like a book that's very of the now. So, it's called all that we are a It was first published last year, if I'm right in saying and then we've got the paperback that's coming out in February 2023. Just tell us a little bit about where this book came from, and how you've approached it, because it's got quite a nice novel way of approaching some of these quite heavy topics. So just tell us a little bit about the backstory to the book.
Gabriella Braun
I didn't know this at the time, but I think it started a very, very long time ago when I had some good and some exceedingly awful experiences at work. And I didn't understand them. Especially well, like the good ones I didn't particularly think about, but the bad ones I couldn't understand. I didn't know what to make of them. There was one that I thought I actually am gonna get ill if I stay here. It was so stressful, so miserable, and so bewildering to me. And I think that set the seed actually although I had no idea, but I think it set the seed for me really wanting to understand what happened and what does happen.
So gradually from there, I started working with organisations I did this master's at the Tavistock in using psychoanalytic approach to work with organisations. I went into my own site psychoanalysis as a patient, which made an enormous difference, and really changed my thinking. And then as a consultant, what I kept seeing was a lot of misery in the workplace, and a lot of stress. And what I felt was, my approach has got so much to offer. But people like me are so bad at taking it out into the workplace. So that's why I wanted to write the book. And that's why I wanted to write it in the way that I've written it.
Chris Moriarty
And in the intro, you talk about we've spent years dehumanising the workplace, the direct quote, we spent years dehumanising the workplace in an attempt to exponentially increase productivity, and profit. And that was that is that kind of link to what you're saying there about this kind of this gap that we either perceive consciously or unconsciously, between our real lives and our working loads is something separate, but it's always struck me that we tend to keep this separation. So was that sounds like that was quite front of mind as well, when you were, when you were looking at this book,
Gabriella Braun
You're right, that was front of mind, the separation that I think is unhelpful to us, is to pretend that we don't take our emotions to work, that we leave them behind when we go to work, and to pretend that we don't take any of our daily life problems to work. Of course, we do, and of course, we take our emotions, we also take our personality, all that it is, and we take our history, and we take our background, we take all that we are we can't not
Chris Moriarty
Is it a fair description to say you kind of set the scene about why this topic is important? But what we then get treated to and I did see them really is a bit of a treat our standalone chapters that are written as if they are just written as if they're fiction stories, you know, like tone, the tense that are written in the first person, the kind of narrative structure of it, it really did remind me of stories from a piece of fiction that you use to frame some of the challenges and issues around the topic. So just tell us a little bit more about how creatively you got into that zone and started pulling all this stuff together.
Gabriella Braun
Well, thank you for that. That is a huge compliment. And that's exactly what I was trying to do. What I knew from the outset was that I didn't want to write an academic book, I didn't want to write a book for people like me, because that just carried on the whole thing that this isn't out in the world. So, I knew I wanted to go to a big, traditional mainstream publisher. And to do that you have to write differently, what I didn't know I had no idea of was that I couldn't write in the way I needed to write, I just I didn't have the skills. So, I had the ambition and aspiration. And then I started to learn the skills. And I got a writing mentor. I went on writing retreats. laterally, I did short writing courses. In fiction, I got very keen on the craft of writing and learning to write.
And what I knew was that I really wanted to write this as short stories. I started to love writing like that. But also, I think, if you're going to talk about emotions, you need to engage people emotionally. I didn't want to kind of give a lecture on emotions. I wanted people to feel it. I mean, you said earlier, Chris, I'm hooked. So, you felt something. And that's what I wanted to do. And that's where I think storytelling is so valuable, that we've always use stories to make sense of us and make sense of our lives make sense of the world around us. That's what people do
Chris Moriarty
Just as an extension of what you just said. And I guess it's a kind of a further compliment, I want to pay you I guess, to use your words, there was a chapter that I read another side of aggression. And in there you told the story of Bilal. And I just found myself kind of rooting for him the idea that there was a character that I could attach myself to and I could imagine and it's all the tiny, small little details that you put in that no other book would put this in right you know, I think it was a car was beeping its horn, there was tulips in the window and you sit there and as well just kind of starts to be painted in front of you.
It kind of relaxes you into a state where the ideas are more easily drifted into your psyche, right? Because you're sitting there going I'm taking this in as a whole I'm not sitting here reading the very turgid list of things that we need to learn and references to certain papers you need to go and read again. I just think from someone who loves stories and loves telling stories. I've just done my ancestry, DNA tests, other tests are available. I'm 66% Irish, so I think it's locked in to me. The stories are cool. I just thought it was brilliant. I really thought it was a brilliant way of bringing a complicated idea into something very accessible. So, which is something we like on this podcast?
Gabriella Braun
Huge. Thanks. Huge thanks. And yes, all those little details. That's me, learning to use the techniques of fiction to bring things to life, because that's how we engage with fiction. And we need in a way that the writer needs to appeal to the readers all of their senses so that they're brought into the page is brought to life.
Ian Ellison
So, there's some really interesting stuff going on here. It reminds me of a sort of pithy little comment, encouraging folks to think about the importance of buy in. I think the pithy phrase goes something like nobody remembered the good presentation. But everybody remembers a great story. And it feels like that's what you're seeking to tap into the fundamentally human ness of storytelling that said, and let's move this in a slightly sort of more researchy direction, the structure of this book, as we've discussed is in three parts. And I think maybe what we'll do next is ask you just to explain those parts in in your words, and then we'll sort of pick a couple of examples. Chris has already mentioned digression. It's funny how you're drawn towards ones I read paranoia.
I read envy. I read the one about school choices. Well, no school performance, which is very closely linked to the stage in my life we're at with my daughter. And so, it's funny, isn't it? How things resonate, and you're drawn towards them. But standing back a little bit? First and foremost, the book is a collection of from a research perspective, you might call them vignettes, you might call them and yes, you, you know, well-crafted now in fictional storytelling, and that's how you're mobilising the message within them, but they are still factually based. And we say factually based, but even that's a bit of a challenge from an ethics perspective. So, let's just in principle, then, how do you handle the information so that it's credible, but not risky to participants? How do you bring it to life in a way that you can use it, and people can feel that it's valid, but nonetheless, it's not? I don't know, exposing might be a good word.
Gabriella Braun
I spent a lot of time on that. The ethics and the worry about confidentiality, a lot of the chapters are composite stories. So, they're absolutely real, but I might move one character from one organisation to another organisation in a story, so that they're, they're unrecognisable. How I thought of it in the end was there, there's masses of facts in here. But also, sometimes there's not fact but truthfulness. So, I differentiated in my mind between this keeps it absolutely truthful, although that hall never hooted, or whatever it is, you know, those aren't facts. But they truthful to the kind of seen the kind of feeling the kind of things that were going on. I also with a couple of them, a couple of the chapters where I was worried that although readers wouldn't know who I was talking about, the protagonist would. And then in that sense, I sent it to them
Ian Ellison
In a research context, you'd call that participant consent, but it, but if you've kind of changed everything, and it's for a different reason, it's almost an abstracted participant consent, because there might be huge gaps in time. You might have not spoken to some of these folks that you originally worked with? years ago?
Gabriella Braun
Yes. And so, I suppose Yes, in that sense, they weren't participants anymore at all. And legally, because the publisher, actually I was very relieved about this, but they put it through a three-way legal check. So, they check it for copyright. They check it for libel. And they check it for privacy. It really matters. It's important. I don't want people thinking, Oh, my God, I've been used in some way I wanted it. I didn't do it with all the chapters by any means. But where I was a bit worried I checked
Ian Ellison
I think the fact and truthfulness is an incredibly important concept, particularly in modern society as much as ethics and conveying information, our key research skills and keep data skills, if you like, sort of a base level. There's something really interesting about the shape of the world at the moment and the difference between fact and all the alignment between fact and truthfulness.
Chris Moriarty
Gabriella, we've hinted at these three sections. So just to go through them we've got the human nature at work, it's the first part, losing ourselves and then finding ourselves which kind of already feels like a kind of set the scene, talk about some of the complication and then satisfy us with a bit of resolution at the end. So even there, I can sort of see the storytelling, training and mindset coming through. But just talk to us a little bit about those sections, what they represent, and, and why you felt that those three blocks were the blocks that you wanted to include it in the book.
Gabriella Braun
So the first block, I thought, I've got to just say something about the basics of who we are, including aggression, including paranoia, and including the very real contradictory pulse we have in us, we all and that's the life and death chapter, that we all have a side of us that pulls us towards a constructive, wish to live engage in life, it's our constructive side. And we have an opposing side that pulls away from that is passive can't be bothered, gives up can also be extremely destructive. And we all have that. So, I wanted to say something about this is the basics of human nature, at work.
And then how we lose ourselves and find ourselves part to the how we lose ourselves. It's our destructiveness, and it is an earlier developmental stage than the constructive side of us. You know, small children will scream and rage and rant, before they get to appreciation. And with appreciation comes love, and they reinforce each other. But the ranting can, can be an earlier stage, when a parent's done something disgraceful like, you know, gone to the loo when they wanted them, or something. Something terrible.
Chris Moriarty
It's like you've got a camera in my house. I've got two-year-old twins, and oh, wow. Yeah. And they came back from nursery. And they had drawn these things on a bit of paper. And one of them was quite a pretty little hedgehog thing that they'd sort of crafted out, and my daughter was playing with it. And she has got this terrible habit of tearing things she'd like, you can't give a books, you've got a supervisor with any sort of paper that is worth anything, because she likes tearing it, and I could see a tearing this thing. And I said, so that's going to need to only need to pop that in the shelf. And that hissy fit that followed me just taking this little bit of paper with a hedgehog on it that I think is wonderful. And everyone else will think it's just a piece of paper with a hedgehog on it. I popped it on the shelf.
And it was Bedlam, utter bedlam. And you see this on social media, right? When people take photos of their kids having a meltdown. Again, this is because I folded the trousers the wrong way. And this is because I gave them the wrong plate and stuff. So, is that what you're saying? So, I guess, not wanting to get a bill after this for asking you these questions. But so, these are kind of recognised development stages. And it actually came through in the I've mentioned billow, already in the aggression, they actually talk there about the use of aggression in children and all the rest of it. So, this is fundamentally getting back to the nature of us and putting it into a work context. And going back to that idea that humans are humans that are working, they're not, they're not humans here, then not humans there
Gabriella Braun
Exactly, exactly that. And all of that is with us at work. So, I don't say our destructiveness comes before constructiveness. And of course, were a mix of all the time. But that's how I structured it. It also, you're absolutely right before in terms of the story arc, it's a nicer arc to finish in the more positive arena. And to get people all hopeful, and then go way down into oh, and this is our destructive side
Chris Moriarty
Do you ever think I found quite interesting about the kind of story techniques is that the three that are really focused in on one of them was a very personal one to one kind of experience with billow there was another one that was a group session that you'd run with a with a health care team that were dealing with very delicate and complicated patients with mental health issues. But then the third one kind of took me by surprise, because it was very personal. It's about you.
And I saw that dripped into a few of the chapters, which was your own psychoanalytical journey about understanding yourself. And I just thought that was very, I guess its kind of disarming in a positive way, because you weren't pointing at other people and saying, look, this is what happens to these people. When they do it, you were kind of bringing yourself to it. And that's a very nice warming way of going, hey, look, we're all in amongst this. It's all very inclusive, because we're all sharing, we're all going to be a bit vulnerable here.
Gabriella Braun
I'm also going to include myself in the book as a character, but I was eventually going to include quite a lot of my thinking in the work, but not my own personal life story and some of my experiences some of my life story. And then it came to the chapter belonging, which is the last chapter in the first part, and I suddenly thought, why don't I try this in first person. And then I thought, of course, I need to do this.
Because actually otherwise, I'm doing just what you said, I'm looking at people and saying, this is all about who you are. I'm, of course not like that. I'm sorted. And I'm looking at you and telling you how you are. And I didn't want to do that I want really wanted to say this is how we are as human beings. And that applies to me as much as anybody else.
Ian Ellison
I think, where I want to go next, Gabriela is towards sort of practical implications. But before we go there, I just kind of got a follow up about the almost the process of writing, it sounds like the unfolding of this book was very much a journey for you. And it sounds like well, it's very obvious, the final product is something to be celebrated. And something I hope that you're very, very proud of.
What was the process? Like? Was it enjoyable? I've heard stories from people that writing a book is the hardest and most hideous thing you could possibly do. I've heard equal stories that writing a book is getting read down for a month and knock out 40,000 words and jobs are good in I suspect, you might sit somewhere on that continuum, but not towards the one month 40,000 words side of things. So how was the act of writing for you?
Gabriella Braun
Long, slow, and sometimes absolutely awful. And stuck in hideous, and I loved it, it felt very creative. Partly because it was organic. And partly probably because I became a character I could be. And partly, definitely a huge reason is because I use techniques from creative writing. So, it became a very creative process. And as I say, at times, it was enormously difficult.
Ian Ellison
You talk in hindsight, at the very end of the book about understanding more because of the process of doing it, really understanding cases that perhaps you hadn't been able to give the time and attention to, in recent months or years. So, it sounds like it was also quite generative in terms of understanding
Gabriella Braun
It was hugely generative in terms of understanding, understanding. Yes, exactly. As you say, cases that I, I now understood better, but also understanding myself, you know, and I was someone who had been, I'd had a long and thorough analysis, but that process doesn't end. And there were things like that I realised some of why I do this work that I hadn't understood before, I suddenly thought, Oh, my God, this is partly why I do this work.
That chapter speaking the unspeakable, which I'd put in my chapter outline. I got the contract, I got the deal with the publisher, on the basis of three sample chapters, and a very detailed proposal, including sample outline chapters, and that was in the outline, I can't remember what two sentences I put about it, but then suddenly, it hit me, oh, my God. This is my family history. In this instance, I think it's a great example of where the unconscious is very savvy and very helpful. My unconscious knew this was a good chapter to write about, it was exactly the right title. And then I wrote it, and then I understood things that I hadn't understood before. And things that I've never said before
Chris Moriarty
That was a reMarrkable chapter that we're reading that it just, I don't want to sound like some sort of crazy fanboy here. But I was just like, it was so powerful. I don't want to do you a disservice by talking about your family history. Let's hear it from yourself. So just tell us a little bit about that chapter and explain why you felt it was such an important one.
Gabriella Braun
The first part of that chapter is about me and my family. And the second part goes into the workplace and sees how this can unfold in a workplace. I have a holocaust family background, and obviously, I wasn't that well. Obviously, I'm not old enough to have been there. But huge numbers of the family were murdered. And I got the deal to write the book on the seventh of February 2020. We had no idea what we were about to go through. So, I was writing under lockdown. And my sister looking for something, you know, how a lot of people suddenly tried to find projects to do when they were locked down. And she started exploring our ancestry and family background in a way that she never had at all.
We thought we knew, but we didn't know. And so, while I was writing, she was coming up with her latest findings, and she got help with doing it. And we thought that about 10 relatives had been murdered during the Holocaust. And I think she discovered it something like 160, or something, something horrendous. And that was such a shock to realise how much we didn't know. And then that made me think, oh my god, there was such silences in the family. And it wasn't anyone deliberately trying to keep things secret. It was too traumatic for my parents to talk about, it couldn't be spoken about. But what happens then is that it's kind of bequeathed to the next generation. It's bequeathed unconsciously it's bequeathed through the words not said, through the emotions picked up through the anxieties picked up that you get from your parents, or whoever it is around you.
And I, I learnt that in analysis, and then I thought this is important to write about, actually, because it does happen in the workplace, not in that kind of degree. But as in that chapter, something had happened in the history of this workplace. And there was an over sensitivity that they did, I didn't understand why there was so sensitive about something. And they didn't know why. And in the end, we discovered there had been an incident, and it had run through the organisation, unconsciously. And those things do happen. If we can talk about some of those things, and something like the Holocaust isn't really digestible. But you can digest to an extent. And if you can talk, less gets transmitted, unconsciously. So, it's less powerful, it has less of a hold on you, you can do more with it.
Chris Moriarty
And what was really interesting about the workplace story, so this was about the Health Care Trust that was dealing with patients that at times could be suicidal, and it was a real fixation on suicide prevention. And no one really knew why, because there wasn't any suicide reports really, there wasn't, you know, they had a good record. But then it transpired that one of the leadership team had passed away. And there was a sense that that was suicide and not the heart attack that people talked about.
And it was just kind of incredible, how receptive we are as emotional creatures to something that wasn't spoken about, although that one that one person did know. And I wonder whether they kind of their behaviour, hinted at the knowledge that they had, but couldn't share. And you know, so it was it was complicated, I guess. And that's what I guess what you're saying is these things are complicated. But until we sit down, and get them out and talk about them, they'll remain complicated, and will have an impact on us.
Gabriella Braun
And the one person that did know only knew fairly recently. But you're right, you know, if we can talk about it, it has, it reduces something. And we feel less anxious when we can make sense of things. Otherwise as the psychoanalyst that talked about nameless dread. And I use that expression, I think, in that chapter. But it's very, very difficult feeling because we just have a sense of dread, and anxiety that we can't put a name to. So, it can just take over everything and spiral out of proportion. If we can name it, we can kind of get a handle on it.
Ian Ellison
So, what we normally do about this point in the conversation, Gabriela is talk about what listeners can take from the research can take from the book, how it might have practical implications for them in their workplace contexts, how they might if they wanted to emulate or replicate or be inspired by what they might do with the work or how they might sort of do something locally themselves. And I feel like for a couple of reasons, that's I'm not entirely sure whether it's an appropriate thing to ask or not an appropriate thing to ask because it strikes me that you have a lifetime of consulting experience with these techniques.
That mean, you can encourage organisations or groups of people in organisations to explore things that might be incredibly dangerous to surface if you didn't have the skills to do that. Also, whilst your book is incredibly engaging and revealing. I think it doesn't offer up quick fixes. I think it displays the complexity of humanity and human nature, as opposed to giving you five easy ways to improve things at the end of each chapter. And so, I guess what I'm trying to say in a roundabout way is it sort of presents me with a bit of a conundrum, because this book is so powerful. And yet, how does somebody realise that power?
Gabriella Braun
I love the way that you've put that actually, because what you haven't tried to do is reduced me to quick tips and tricks, you've absolutely seen the complexity of what the book is about, and what my work is about. And at the same time, I think there are some things that the reader or the listener, rather can take away. And one of those is just that actually thinking about our complexity as human beings and thinking about the fact that all of it is with us at work. And we don't leave it behind under the pillow. You know, it's there with us. I think even that helps. So what listeners can think about is, when I reacted like I did yesterday in that meeting, what was that about?
So think more about your own reactions, your own behaviour, think about some of the buttons that got pushed might not apparently have anything to do with the workplace, it might be a colleague does something and it just kind of triggers a reaction from your incredibly annoying sibling, who was annoying, perhaps when you were five, perhaps isn't even more, but it reminded you somehow it triggered that, oh, my god, here we are, again, this situation, it might not be conscious. But it's really helpful to let your mind wander irrationally, about what has this situation reminded you of. Because it might be that that irrational memory, helps you understand something, and might help you with your own reactions and your own behaviour.
Ian Ellison
At a more surface level. What really resonates with me or what strongly resonates with me is being open to the realisation that organisations, leadership teams, management teams, quite often don't want to acknowledge the dark side of organisations. And there is a dark side to organisations, there's always a dark side to organisations, because they are built of people. And like you said, people have both, you know, light sides and dark sides or wherever the right way to frame it is. And, you know, we see this in a very, sort of much more straightforward kind of workplace consultancy setting, we tend to see, you know, people talking about, well, we need to communicate more, and we need to collaborate more, and there's loads to see, whereas in workplaces, right, but the one that people never talk about his control.
And it's so obviously there, but nobody ever really acknowledges it, except the academics who get badged as cantankerous contrary, you know, guardian reading, lefties who are kind of like prodding a thing that shouldn't be prodded because they're anti productivity, and they're anti performance. And sometimes what I sometimes feel is, maybe they're just trying to see things more holistically. And sometimes you got to explore the dark as much you've got to you've got to explore the light.
Gabriella Braun
That's right. And I think part of thinking about our own behaviours is, it might be that you look at yourself, and you realise you're really controlling. And you can justify that because you're a leader, and you've got to ensure productivity and performance. But you might think deeper and think, yeah, but it doesn't mean I had to do whatever, I didn't have to breathe down somebody's neck like I did, I'm driving them a bit mad. And I know very well that that particular individual would work far better if I stood back and showed them that I trust them. And let them come to me when they need to, I don't need to be, you know, I'm not bringing out the best in them. And that's all about my anxiety, it's not about them
Ian Ellison
Takes an awful lot of self-awareness that doesn't it.
Gabriella Braun
It does take an awful lot of self-awareness.
Chris Moriarty
But one of the popular things and Ian and I in our small organisation have done this because it just feels like the right thing to do is this kind of personality profiling. And my wife's done one as well, where she'll talk about things and go, well, they were being very red, and I wanted to be very blue. And did you just sit again? Yes, there is some value to those sorts of things where it's like, okay, well, you know, when you're in a good mood, you tend to look like this and you're in your bad mood. You look like that. But what I'm getting from what you've just said, and certainly what I got from the book is its way more complicated than that. You can have someone who's a rare It's, I would normally act like this.
But their brother has just passed away and they were very close. And that dug up a load of trauma about of sibling they lost when they were a child. You know, there's just without turning every employee into their own little, you know, psychoanalyst and having to go and say, tell me about your mother to a colleague when they're not looking themselves. But I guess it's more of a recognition that this stuff going on some of it you will see some of it you will know about some of it happened 40 years ago, some of it happened 40 minutes ago, just be a bit more open minded about it. And maybe do maybe ask a good question. Are you okay? Shall we go for a coffee?
Gabriella Braun
I don't dismiss them. They have their uses. They give people a safe way of talking about things. So, oh, yeah, maybe that's because you're an extrovert, and I'm an introverted thinker, or that's because you're red, and I'm blue or whatever. And that's quite safe. That can be helpful, but it is limited. And I think where they're very unhelpful is that people think that's it, they've, they've gone to the depth, they know everything they need to know. They don't need any more than those tools. That's not true. I think we all in the workplace and out of the workplace, we'd be helped a lot by just understanding more of the human mind and what makes us tick.
-- Reflection Section --
Chris Moriarty
A little change up to the reflection section, we are not joined by James Pinder, we've had what many would describe as an upgrade. We have got as Esme Banks Marr, who has joined us once before, but welcome back to the Workplace Geeks podcast as me.
Esme Banks Marr
Hello. Hi, Chris. Hi Ian.
Chris Moriarty
And it's only fair, I guess, to let your guests go first, you've listened to chat with Gabriella, what's the thing that stood out for you?
Esme Banks Marr
Okay, so the first thing that stood out for me was the fact that this wasn't a heavy, heavy academic paper, which at first, I thought, Oh, what are these Workplace Geeks doing? But actually, of course it is its research and its storytelling. And I know you guys talked about this with her. But I thought that was a really powerful way of getting to people who perhaps wouldn't have read or digested such information before because it was kind of packaged up stories. And I just think that's an incredibly powerful way of reaching more people.
Ian Ellison
It's interesting that you say that is because in a different academic context, what Gabriella did, has formed. And the best example of that, and look, I've got visuals is I don't think we mentioned this in the interview Chris. But Oliver Sacks, The Man Who Mistook his wife for a hat is lots of stories about essential mental illness, mental conditions, which he sort of works out and deciphers and then writes about as case studies with anonymised patients, so they're kind of like individual case study stories.
And what Gabriella did, they were like organisational, fictionalised stories for ethical reasons. So, it really resonated with me from a book, which I remember buying in the 90s. But it's not a format, which resonates with our industry might be one way of sort of looking at it, you know, I mean
Esme Banks Marr
Yeah, I think at an individual level, and you picked up on this, and at an individual level, it's going to be very self-reflective for anyone who reads it. And I think you mentioned this, it almost opens a bit of a can of worms. So, unless you have people who are in management positions, or leadership positions, also reading it, but I think it could perhaps verge on being this is your word, not mine, but almost dangerous.
And it kind of got me thinking because I operate in the world of workplaces, does this mean that there's a whole new role? That's come up again, and it's kind of that human welfare officer type of role? Who's looking after this in organisations? Does anyone need to be looking after this and organisations? Just respecting it, acknowledging it?
Ian Ellison
So rather than occupational health, almost organisational health? Yeah, that's really interesting
Esme Banks Marr
With the sum of our parts, like as individuals, but organisations are the sum of their parts as well. And that means people, they're made up of lots of complex people. So yeah, it kind of got me thinking at that organisational level. Gosh, this is a huge can of worms. And obviously, Gabriella supports organisations were doing that, but as an in-house thing, are we at a time in our existence where that is something that is part of work.
Ian Ellison
I think, for that to be endorsed, you almost need to accept it's a bit like the first step, isn't it? You know, my name is Ian, and I'm a perfectionist. The first step is recognising that you've got something that you need to work on. Maybe it's more accepted in America in the States than it is in the UK, because there's a therapy culture, because we don't we don't have a therapy culture yet right?
Esme Banks Marr
Now, and it's gotten to a point in the conversation where I think it's if you have a therapist or you go to a counsellor, that's kind of a very much a respected, appreciated thing. How great is that? Oh, good for you kind of thing, but we're definitely not there. So, I wonder how that would be picked up at an organisational level.
Chris Moriarty
There's a few things in there Esme, obviously, you started off talking about the power of storytelling, and I do you know, this book could have been quite heavy, you know, it, it kind of feels like what we're saying is that there is stacks of academia hidden amongst all this stuff. But rather than sit there and go, here's some science. And here's some studies about this guy that looked at children at this age and saw regression came out first, and, I've read a book like that there's a book called The Body Keeps the Score. And it's I found it fascinating, loved it. It's heavy, though, and it took a long time to read. And what Gabriella has touched in on, and I wonder whether there's applications for this in more fields that are more technical, can be very technical, is to say, actually, I'm just going to tell you a series of short stories that are going to be ways of us, almost like Trojan horses, like sneaking the thinking in and I thought that was wonderful. And I was, as someone who likes writing, I think it's a lovely execution of a very creative way of transferring ideas and transferring knowledge.
Now going on to your part, then about the implications of it for organisations who's going to read it, it is interesting, who is the target audience is the idea that individuals reading this will then look at themselves, and reflect on themselves? And I think that's I don't know, we didn't ask Gabriella the question. That's unfair, really, to guess what she would say and perhaps, but I think she would be very pleased if a lot of people read it and reflected on themselves and took stuff forward. But it did just us as you were talking about it there. You made me think about something that Ian and I have just gone through. So, Sam Connor from series one, was talking about his book, be more pirate, and now he's got this new thing that we promoted for a while, which is the uncertainty experts. And very kindly is I guess, it's a bit of a thank you for talking to him on the poddy invited Ian and I on sort, of course, and we just finished it now won't go into the details about the course so much. But there was a moment in it, where I personally think I have quite a high tolerance for uncertainty, I almost crave it and thrive on it.
So, there was a point where I was in the course and I was a bit like, I've enjoyed the experience. But have I really improved my own personal tolerance, because it was quite high anyway. But someone said it was really interesting for me to start understanding what my team's might be going through. And it was a moment for me to go, oh, yeah, it's not just all about me. It's about helping understand the human condition. Because I might find someone at some point, who isn't so tolerant to uncertainty and me understanding it's a bit better. And I guess that's the other opportunity with Gabrielle’s work is that leaders could be reading this and thinking actually, that reminds me of that person in my team. And perhaps I need to think about this. And perhaps I need to do that. So, there is a two-pronged approach there, isn't it?
Esme Banks Marr
Yeah, definitely. I think as well, I, this might be a can of worms that I'm opening guys, this taps into the idea of bringing your whole self to work. Now I'm going to be very, very honest, maybe too honest. And say this is actually a notion I struggle with a little bit, the idea of bringing you lots of love to work, it seems to be quite a hot topic and for absolutely the right reasons, mainly, that you certainly shouldn't hide who you are at work. And I kind of don't really mean that. But I think there's something quite powerful about separating. At an individual level, there's something quite powerful about separating, your different beings.
You're a different person at home and with your friends than you are in the office, you're there for a different reason at the end of the day, and there can be something quite powerful and useful about separating that now I would say this because I like to think I'm a bit of a stoic. But I also appreciate we're not just a pile of matter, we are our full selves exactly. Like Gabriella says, we have baggage, we come with baggage. But I think acknowledging that we do that sometimes at work, that's okay. But also, our leaders do it a lot to sometimes get through some really rough periods, or managers a lot to just handle what they have on their plate. playing that kind of work character can actually be quite powerful. I think it must take a lot sometimes to do that. And it doesn't mean you're not bringing emotions or your feelings or your history with you when you walk through the office Store or sit down at your kitchen table every day. But I do think there's something quite powerful about doing that. And I also think that's okay, so I think that's quite an important thing to discuss as well
Chris Moriarty
Is that distinction, though, that you're drawing this, cuz I agree with that, that kind of bring your whole self to work thing, I think is a bit overplayed. And like a lot of these things, you can imagine that the original sentiment is kind of been lost. And it's become a kind of thing that people say and put your send is important that people can choose what they bring into work, you know, they might want to leave their family at home, they might not work. The flip side of it is they might not want to take their work home as well. I guess what Gabriela touches on though. The way I interpret it is that there are conscious decisions you make about how much you take each way but quite often as well. There's unconscious stuff you bring with it is essentially emotional baggage that you're bringing in that you would love to leave at home, but I just can't because it is occupying every thought I've got, or it's part of my psyche.
And if we're a bit more sensitive to that a bit more aware of that, then, you know, we might, because we talked about stories, and someone who's also a big proponent of stories is Brene Braun when she's talking about what story are you telling yourself, and she does this amazing bit where she talks about how her husband comes home from work, looks in the fridge and makes a big Tuts. And she's decided, it's because he thinks she should have been out to the shops that day and pick something up and all the rest of it, and she has this big go at him. And she said, what story you're telling yourself that he thinks I should be doing this job, because he's the man and under this. And actually, what he was thinking is, I was at the shops, I should have picked the milk up whilst I was there, you know, and it's, you've always got to be really careful of the gap, you fill what you fill the gap with, in your knowledge and go, that's because they're like this.
Esme Banks Marr
Do you know what she said? That absolutely floored me that I haven't heard for a little while. Or I certainly haven't heard it put like this. I've thought about it before. But she said quite early on we dehumanize the workplace and the pursuit of profit. And I thought, gosh, we do that. But actually, it's we it's in the pursuit of productivity equals profit. But we're in it. I feel like as an industry, we're in a point now where we're trying to reverse engineer the human aspect back into it. And our workplaces weren't set up like that the systems around work weren't set up like that. So actually, it comes back to the wider discussion that's going on. In some places at the moment. That's this radical rethink of work. Forget the play side of it. That kind of follows right. But this rethink our relationship to work and where it sits within our lives collectively, individually. But yeah, that we do humanize the workplace and the pursuit of profit. God.
Chris Moriarty
Doesn’t it make you sick? When someone comes up with a really cracking sentence? And you're like, I, I knew that. Why didn't I say that sentence?
Esme Banks Marr
Yeah.
Chris Moriarty
Does anyone else imagine themselves on a conference stage with that, and a white screen a massive screen behind them white slide, just the words and everyone's holding their phone up and doing it and you're like, that's the thing. Ian, what was your favourite bit from our chat with Gabriella Braun?
Ian Ellison
The bit that really stood out to me was that sentence about not fact, but truthfulness? Because in the world that we live in, next yours.
Chris Moriarty
You've nicked my one?
Ian Ellison
Yeah, not fact, but truthfulness? Because? Well, I mean, some of its really obvious right in the world. We live in a fake news and bickering about this and bickering about that. But in a world of quantitative research versus qualitative research, positivism versus subjectivism, all these different ways to think about knowledge and information, it takes back to the Oliver Sacks book, which I was waving around a few minutes ago. You know, when you have a single patient, you can anonymise that patient. But when you have an organisation, a system, lots of different agents, lots of different characters in this particular story to make it viable in a really safe way. And she talked about a three-way check copyright, libel and privacy, but you can still preserve the earnestness, the truthfulness of the message, even though you've changed the facts to protect the innocent.
Chris Moriarty
I really liked that idea as well. And it reminded me years ago, when I was in the world of Marrketing policy, when I worked at the institute Marrketing, we were challenging some sort of it was to do with the sponsorship of the Olympics. And what we felt as Institute was over draconian rules that were punishing small businesses. That's the kind of background but one of the sentences that the director of research check called David Thorpe came up with, it's about the difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of it.
And I was just like, yeah, that's exactly it, isn't it? It's like, we can technically do for this, but it's not really what it's there to protect. It's there to protect, you know, nike from membership in the Olympics, not a butcher put in Olympic circles in his window, right? And it just dawned on me that that was kind of what Gabriella was saying, which is, you know, it's, it's about the spirit of what I'm trying to tell you, not necessarily the detail and the facts, because they aren't the important thing here. All you need to know is it's anchored in truth
Ian Ellison
To be able to do that. You have to have the trust of your audience. So if you are in a research context, and you're doing qualitative research, and you're presenting qualitative findings, one of the things that you have to seek is credibility, credibility, trustfulness worthiness, because you're not measuring your research by the same standards that you measure positivistic research for example, can you recreate the study so all of that stuff about double blind. If we did it again, would we get the same findings? You can't do that in a case study context. You can't do that with different organisations because the system is completely different.
So, you're measuring it by different standards. And that's quite often lost when we talk about like gold standard research. And when we talk about good science, quote, unquote, in the media, we very often have an image of scientists doing double blind studies. Freakonomics podcast talks about it all the time, like the gold standard of research, but the sort of stuff that Gabriella’s interested in the sort of stuff that qualitative researchers are interested in. It's measured by different values, right?
Chris Moriarty
Well Esme, because that that's a really interesting part, isn't it about and it kind of links to what the first bit that we were talking about in terms of the storytelling, a little rest of it is that how do we make sure you know, from your experience, or from your honest view, there is always a temptation to really not sensationalised for the sake of sensationalising but you need something to get attention, you need something to, to draw people in. And there's a fine line isn't there between overstepping the Marrk and getting into exaggeration, embellishment and all the rest of it, versus we're telling the truth in a more interesting way.
Esme Banks Marr
And I think as a nation, we struggle with this more than many others because of how our press operate. It's fear mongering, is number one, always in terms of if you're going to get a headline, if you're going to play something as a former PR person, you know, invert, the headline said, it will get more clicks, make it more negative than positive, because you'll direct more people to it. But I also think Ian to pick up on what you were saying about credibility, do you guys think that's more important? Not more important now? But do you think it's something that we should focus on even more now? I don't know what I mean by now. But now everybody is a journalist. Anyone can put news out there, anyone can do research?
Ian Ellison
Yeah, there's two sides to this credibility, yes, on the part of the person broadcasting the information. But the sister skill that goes with that is critical thinking, right? It's the ability to be able to critique and judge on the fly, because we just don't we're not wired to as human beings, right? We're not wired to, but actually stopping now is more important than ever and going. Can I see the counter to this? And can I see all the different angles? And what's the motive for that person putting this out into the world?
If we ask that about every workplace fact? What's the motive for the person putting this out into the world? Right? What are they, what's their self-interest? With this wonderful story that they're telling us? Then you would get a damn sight further than we tend to I think as a profession
Esme Banks Marr
I also think, in the industry that we're in research often equates to data, or people kind of connote, is that the word I mean Ian, people feel as though it's synonymous. Research is synonymous with data, especially in the world of workplace or buildings, the built environment. And I think because there is a mistrust of anything to do with data as well. Not across the board. But there is a bit of a rumbling of that, obviously, I think the not the credibility, but there's just awareness of it, as well.
Chris Moriarty
Meanwhile, Esme I was just trying to find the word that you were trying to say, have another go at what was what were you trying to say before, connote, connote, connote I found it, I found it, c o n n o t e. Signify you can have that connote, that is that says, you know, you're saying that data does not signify research.
Esme Banks Marr
But for a lot of people research might connote data, I'm gonna stop there.
Chris Moriarty
The second thing that I thought was interesting, because he and stole my first one was about personality tests. And that was one of the last things we talked about. And I guess it’s kind of linked to some of the stuff we talked about, you know, the kind of potential dangers with knowledge like this, or a little bit of knowledge, I guess, is, you know, could be quite get dangerous in this front. I guess, with stuff like this, it always makes me think about how there is this kind of tendency for people in organisations to want a quick, easy, structured answer.
You know, let's say Gabriella wrote this book 20 year ago, and there was this sort of big explosion of people going yeah, this is really important about people's emotions and their personalities. And the, you know, what we will be saying is going to be hard work though, you're going to have to really invest yourself into this and roll your sleeves up and really get involved in this stuff. But what we tend to want to go is and what we've developed, so handy little framework where you can ask to survey, and people will then be put into their groups and you know, interestingly, and I'm going to wave a book around now. My mum bought my mum does this thing where she listens to the radio and they'll review a book and she goes, that sounds like the nonsense Chris reads and then she buys me the book. So, she's bought me this book now Ian I know we do a lot of work together. She He bought me a book called surrounded by idiots. And it's surrounded by idiots.
Ian Ellison
There's the four colours there, we are
Chris Moriarty
The four types of human behaviour. So, in fairness to the chap who wrote this Thomas Erickson, I'm going to read that and have the rest of it. But there is this sort of tendency to be like, Oh, good, I've got a label. Now I can wear my hat. And what worries me is that organisations are kind of like, we've done personality tests, tick. And I've been involved in small organisations that kind of go, we're going to do that as part of our interview process. So, we can match people. And it's like, it's oh, it doesn't, it doesn't quite work like that now, like Gabrielle has, she didn't do them down at all, which was I, was I trying to get her in that direction? I don't think so. I think she's been very polite. She was being polite.
But she did make a good point is that there a safe starting point. But she made the point. It's a starting point. This isn't you haven't ticked the box. Now, because you've done this. And I don't think its just personality tests. Where this manifest itself. It's in a lot of things were like, if you think about hybrid working, what what's the answer? What's the answer? Give us a cookie cutter. What's give me the form that I need to fill in, so we can know what policy to go down. And unfortunately, it ain't like that. And you know, maybe that's a big problem.
Ian Ellison
They're a useful tool. They're a thinking tool. Some people might say they're a basic tool depends, I would say, depends how grumpy I'm feeling about them on a particular day. But they're a really good starting point. Gabrielle is right. But yeah, we love as human beings to be able to put things in boxes, because then we've sorted our filing out, right. But it's not like that. Right there a good guide.
James Pinder
My first ever personality profiling took place in 2015. And there was one thing that came out of it, which has stuck with me ever since. And I've perhaps thought about every day ever since
Chris Moriarty
That's an interesting point in and of itself, right, which is one of two things have happened there. Right, without these reports that you get back from personality test, either some person has written it, or, and what is typical, is that a series of questions have led to a series of answers. What it is, is a series of stock paragraphs that are spliced together. And this is my big problem with all of these sorts of things. The introvert versus the extrovert thing if someone was to describe an introvert extrovert, and it's a big question Marrk, about whether people understand truly what that means versus you know, how you act in a meeting is more about where you do thinking right, as I understand it, but if you were going to describe something, I am very extroverted in some circumstances, you would you would label me as an extrovert in some circumstances. But in other circumstances, and particularly for me, networking events, right? I'm a complete wallflower. I don't want to talk to a soul. In the past, I've described it as when there is a networking meeting. And I don't really know people, I do what I used to do as a teenager at the school disco, which was to stand in the corner look moody and interesting and hope someone comes and talks to me, right.
And that's what I do at networking events. And it is completely counter to how I act when I'm put on a conference stage or I'm in an environment where I know people. And that's why I think these personality tests are something to be cautious about. Because as Gabriela describes, in her stories, there's so much nuance in there, there's much there's much more granular codes that have been put together versus these sort of big blocks that have been put together. We can't distil the human population into four colours with a headline, right? They are a useful categorisation, but there is nuance in underneath it and we should be able to protect that and embrace it. That has been an excellent reflection section I think is very reflective on a subject where we should be reflective. So, thank you as me for joining us. I'm in no doubt that you'll be joining us again soon because we love we love bringing you in and it's just nice to have someone I don't know about you, Ian it's just nice to have someone a bit cheerier on there. You know, I always feel like we're, we're bothering James always like you could do without it. If we ever feel the need to let James crack on. We will be given you a call. So, thank you so much for joining us.
-- Outro –
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